Talk:Lorenzo Snow couplet theology

Contents 1 Suggestions 2 Traditional Lorenzo Snow couplet theology compared with minority positions on the KFD 3 To use 4 Notes

Passages Mormons use to argue for it:

"Heraclitus rightly said, 'men are gods and gods are men'." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor 3:1

"One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification, but one thing is certain: with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the Ancient Church than the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin were, who considered the thought of such a substantial connection between God and man as the heresy, par excellence." Benz, E.W., Imago Dei: Man in the Image of God, in Madsen, ed., Reflections on Mormonism, 215-216

The Vatican Catecism: (Note: I do not know if this was contained in the Catechism prior to Vatican II)

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch...122a3p1.htm#460

"God became man so that man might become a god." (cf. St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione or On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B; also Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 460)

the Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge; for this reason, that we, too, as long as we are connected with the scheme of things in this world, should leave perfect knowledge, and such questions [as have been mentioned], to God, and should not by any chance, while we seek to investigate the sublime nature of the Father, fall into the danger of starting the question whether there is another God above God." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:27:8, in ANF 1:402.]

Of relevant interest: http://www.libertypages.com/clark/10767.html

[edit] Suggestions

I would add a "resource" section, where you link to (or cite) Smith's King Follet Discourse. Perhaps even start a second article for the Sermon in (on?) the Grove. I'd be interested in a historical approach to this article as well. Did this discourse circulate much after it was given? Did it appear in any magazines or publications of such sort? Was it quoted in any other sermons or talks given shortly thereafter? You get the idea. ;) Even though a few like Ostler reinterpret the discourse, what Mormons today still take the discourse seriously and understand opposite of what Ostler thinks? Jpb (talk) 03:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional Lorenzo Snow couplet theology compared with minority positions on the KFD

	Traditional Lorenzo Snow couple theology	"Special strain of savior gods" view[1]	Ostlerian view	"One track", multiple mortal probations view
Was the Father fully divine before gaining a body of flesh and bones?	No	Yes	Yes	Yes, after already having experienced a mortal probation wherein we progressed unto godhood.
How was the Father's mortal probation like Christ's?	The Father's mortality is like Christ's just as our mortality is like Christ's. We all experience the sufferings of mortality, death, and resurrection.	Both the Father and Jesus Christ played the role of a savior in performing an atonement of suffering, dying a sacrificial death, and resurrecting for the sins of others.	Like Jesus, the Father "already had divine powers over life itself as a mortal."[2]	It depends on which probation is being spoken of. The Father experienced multiple probations, one like we are experiencing, and another like Christ most recently experienced.
How is our mortality like the Father's?	"Most deities would be people who lived mortal probations and then became gods through relying upon an atonement of a messiah provided them by their messiah."[3]	Our mortality is like the Father's just as it is like Christ's. We will experience the sufferings in life, die, and then be resurrected.	We experienced the sufferings of mortality, a death, and resurrection	We relied upon an atonement provided by a messiah. If Celestially exalted, we will one day experience a mortal probation like Christ's.
Did God the Father ever play the role of a savior?	No. "From this statement of the Prophet ['Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did.' (KFD)], many have attempted to reason that he was saying that his father was also a savior for those of another world and thus that all worlds require their own saviors. The Prophet never taught such a thing and was not alluding to it here. His remarks centered on the doctrine of resurrection, not the salvation of God’s endless creations. The Prophet had already clearly taught that the atonement of Christ—which was infinite—embraced all that he had created under the direction of the Father (see commentary on D&C 76:23-24). Responding to those who wanted to argue that there is a special strain of savior gods, Elder Bruce R. McConkie often asked, ‘What earthly good could possibly come from teaching such a thing?’"[4]	Yes	No	Yes. After he experienced a mortal probation wherein he experienced life like we are, he then experienced a mortal probation wherein he played the role of a savior like Christ.
Was God the Father once a sinner?	"if we do not assume that, we must assume that we'll never become gods ourselves. Sure, someone like Jesus will become a God and never have sinned, etc. But according to the Church's soteriology, you and I are also seeking to become a god. Thus, Jesus would be the exception. Most deities would be people who lived mortal probations and then became gods through relying upon an atonement of a messiah provided them by their messiah."[5]	No. John 5:19 and the Lectures on Faith preclude this.	No	Yes, in the mortal probation wherein he progressed toward godhood.
Does God the Father have a spirit-father?	Yes. "If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also?" - Joseph Smith[6]	Maybe	No	Yes
Is God the Father the ultimate "Head God"?	No	Maybe	Yes	No
Is any god the ultimate "Head God"?	No	Maybe	Yes	No
Is there an infinite regression/chain of gods?	Yes. "But if God the Father was not always God, but came to his present exalted position by degrees of progress as indicated in the teachings of the prophet, how has there been a God from all eternity? The answer is that there has been and there now exists an endless line of Gods, stretching back into the eternities, that had no beginning and will have no end. Their existence runs parallel with endless duration, and their dominions are as limitless as boundless space." - B.H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, 3 vols., 1:, p.476	Maybe	No	Yes
Does Psalm 90:2 teach that God the Father was always fully God?	No	No	Yes	No
Can we become a god as God the Father became a god?	Yes, in every aspect	Only in some aspects	Only in some aspects	Yes, in every aspect
Is a mortal probation absolutely necessary for achieving godhood?	No	No	No	Yes
How many mortal probations can one experience?	One	One	One	At least two

[edit] To use

In the King Follett Discourse Joseph Smith described his teaching as "good doctrine":

"This is good doctrine. It tastes good. . . . when I tell you of these words of eternal life that are given to me by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the revelations of Jesus Christ, you are bound to receive them as sweet. You taste them and I know you believe them."

[edit] Notes

1. ↑ Sometimes also called the "two track" theory.
2. ↑ http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/did-god-come-to-be-god/251/#comment-17377
3. ↑ Alonzo L. Gaskill, BYU Assistant Professor of Church History and Doctrine (1/24/2007, e-mail dialogue with Aaron Shafovaloff)
4. ↑ Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig J. Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration: A Commentary on the Doctrine & Covenants & Other Modern Revelations
5. ↑ Alonzo L. Gaskill, BYU Assistant Professor of Church History and Doctrine (1/24/2007, e-mail dialogue with Aaron Shafovaloff)
6. ↑ http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/joseph-smiths-sermon-in-the-grove/